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From: Kurt Schwehr <schwehr@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 2021 17:49:37 -0800
Message-ID: <CACmBxyvM0V8i4kDxNzabmzTJ276Cy_Jg+9Ph5NJrP11E07pCCg@mail.gmail.com>
To: tiff@lists.osgeo.org
Subject: Re: [Tiff] Autotools (was: Enabling and requiring C99 language
 support)
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Sorry I'm late to subscribing to the mailing list, so I'm sure this email
will fail to thread correctly :(

It's great to see this topic being discussed.  A couple of thoughts as I
try to catch up to the discussion:

First, it would be great to have a document that talks about what is
expected of libtiff.  What platforms are specifically supported?  I could
have done better for GDAL with
https://gdal.org/development/rfc/rfc68_cplusplus11.html and I hope that
whatever the conclusion is for libtiff that the results are well
documented.  Knowing what is expected for patches will hopefully get more
folks to contribute.  If there is real need for C89 or other things, those
should be clearly spelled out so that the maintainers can make the value
judgement if they should be supported or dropped.  There is cost to
maintaining older systems and that should be called out.

Second:

Generally speaking, I don=E2=80=99t think that C99 is directly related to m=
aking
> the autotools unnecessary; they are pretty much orthogonal. However, I do
> think it might be worth re-examining the value the autotools provide, and
> considering if it is worth keeping them. We currently have four (!)
> separate build systems (Autotools, CMake, VMS, MSVC NMake), and maintaini=
ng
> four is three too many.


I use and maintain a bazel based build of libtiff, so I'm less worried
about which build system.  For that build, my main hope for libtiff is that
it get to at least C99 and that a lot of the legacy complexity gets
removed.  To me, it seems unreasonable to expect any explicit support from
libtiff upstream of my packaging with bazel.

As a user / maintainer of too many packaging of tools over the years, for C
and C++, if it's not autoconf or cmake that is the primary config/build
environment, things start to get rough for packagers.  My experience mostly
comes from the world of SunOS 4/Solaris/Irix/VxWorks/Linux/Mac OSX[fink].
On Linux (usually debian testing), I do love working with cmake parallel
builds with ninja.  It works fine on smaller hardware and scales well when
folks have machines with many cores.   I've done most of my cross compiling
with autoconf which was manageable.  I know not how well CMake handles
cross compiling.

Cheers,
-Kurt

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;fon=
t-size:medium">Sorry I&#39;m late to subscribing to the mailing list, so I&=
#39;m sure this email will fail to thread correctly :(</span></div><div><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:medium"><br></span=
></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:med=
ium">It&#39;s great to see this topic being discussed.=C2=A0 A couple of th=
oughts as I try to catch up=C2=A0to the discussion:</span></div><div><span =
style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:medium"><br></span></=
div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:medium=
">First, it would be great to have a document that talks about what is expe=
cted of libtiff.=C2=A0 What platforms are specifically supported?=C2=A0 I c=
ould have done better for GDAL with=C2=A0</span><font face=3D"arial, sans-s=
erif"><a href=3D"https://gdal.org/development/rfc/rfc68_cplusplus11.html">h=
ttps://gdal.org/development/rfc/rfc68_cplusplus11.html</a> and I hope that =
whatever the conclusion is for libtiff that the results are well documented=
.=C2=A0 Knowing what is expected for patches will hopefully get more folks =
to contribute.=C2=A0 If there is real need for C89 or other things, those s=
hould be clearly spelled out so that the maintainers can make the value jud=
gement if they should be supported or dropped.=C2=A0 There is cost to maint=
aining older systems and that should be called out.</font></div><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:medium"><div><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:medium"><br></span></div><=
div>Second:</div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;fon=
t-size:medium"><br></span></div></span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:m=
edium">Generally speaking, I don=E2=80=99t think that C99 is directly relat=
ed to making the autotools unnecessary; they are pretty much orthogonal. Ho=
wever, I do think it might be worth re-examining the value the autotools pr=
ovide, and considering if it is worth keeping them. We currently have four =
(!) separate build systems (Autotools, CMake, VMS, MSVC NMake), and maintai=
ning four is three too many.</span></blockquote><div><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:medium"><br></span></div><div><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:medium">I use and main=
tain a bazel based build of libtiff, so I&#39;m less worried about which bu=
ild system.=C2=A0 For that build, my main hope for libtiff is that it get t=
o at least C99 and that a lot of the legacy complexity gets removed.=C2=A0 =
To me, it seems unreasonable to expect any explicit  support from libtiff u=
pstream of my packaging with bazel.</span></div><div><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:medium"><br></span></div><div><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:medium">As a user / ma=
intainer of too many packaging=C2=A0of tools over the years, for C and C++,=
 if it&#39;s not autoconf or cmake that is the primary config/build environ=
ment, things start to get rough for packagers.=C2=A0 My experience mostly c=
omes from the=C2=A0world of SunOS 4/Solaris/Irix/VxWorks/Linux/Mac OSX[fink=
].=C2=A0 On Linux (usually debian testing), I do love working with cmake pa=
rallel builds with ninja.=C2=A0 It works fine on smaller hardware and scale=
s well when folks have machines with many cores.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I&#39;ve done =
most of my cross compiling with autoconf which was manageable.=C2=A0 I know=
 not how well CMake handles cross compiling.</span></div><div><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:medium"><br></span></div><=
div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;font-size:medium">Che=
ers,</span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Times;fon=
t-size:medium">-Kurt</span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-=
family:Times;font-size:medium"><br></span></div></div>

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