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From: Toby Thain <toby@telegraphics.com.au>
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 00:02:44 -0500
To: TIFF <tiff@lists.maptools.org>
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Cc: "Joris Van Damme \(\(AWare Systems\)\)" <info@awaresystems.be>
Subject: Re: [Tiff] OT: Text layer possible in tiff format?
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On 26-Feb-09, at 10:07 PM, Chris Cox wrote:

> Yes, Kodak stuffed a lot of non-standard, undocumented stuff into =20
> their files.
>
> For Photoshop, the text has to be pixel accurate =97 what one user =20
> sees, all users should see. That requires the same exact layout and =20=

> rasterization engine everywhere.  So, Photoshop=92s text layers are =20=

> not a good candidate for sharing with other apps.


This, from the company that invented PostScript and PDF, for which =20
"pixel accurate" interoperable tools have been produced by multiple =20
vendors (including open source) for decades.

With good enough documentation and specification, as those other =20
technologies have had, we could see the same diversity and healthy =20
competition in rasterisation and compositing engines for PSD as =20
transformed imaging industries post-PostScript.

Nearly everyone (outside Adobe) would be happy to see PSD's =20
primitives =96 already a de facto standard of sorts, if reeking of lock-=20=

in =96 be made fully interoperable. However Adobe seems to fear that =20
kind of open-ness and it seems safe to predict it will never happen. =20
Technical rationales for this are rather feeble compared to the =20
powerful paranoia factor.

--Toby

>
>
> If you just want comments, that could be standardized =96 since the =20=

> exact rasterization doesn=92t matter.  Of course, comments could just =20=

> be added to standard XMP metadata and optionally rendered.
>
> Chris
>
>
> On 2/26/09 5:53 PM, "zhangweiwu@realss.com" <zhangweiwu@realss.com> =20=

> wrote:
>
> S Carlsen schrieb:
> > Joris, Zhang, and all,
> >
> > Yes, it would certainly be possible to add constructs such as image
> > layers, text layers, masks, and so on to TIFF. (There was actually a
> > brief discussion of this topic at least as far back as May of 2004.)
> > It would of course take a fair amount of commitment to make it =20
> happen.
> > But if it did happen, if it were reasonably elegant and not too
> > difficult to implement, and if it gained some momentum and =20
> popularity,
> > I suspect that Photoshop would eventually support it.
> >
> Hi thanks for the comment.
>
> If there could be effort on this, where should this effort be put? On
> Gimp TIFF save plugin? or could libtiff do something? I guess first
> thing that should be done should be in GIMP.
>
> I remember some 10 years ago I used a software pre-installed on MS
> Windows, made by Kodak, called "Image". The software allows me to put
> comment text on TIFF images and save it in the tiff images. The other
> person who opens the tiff image can see and edit my comment. "Comment"
> is simply text above image layers. Does anyone know if Kodak stuffed a
> lot of non-standard information as comment into TIFF or it extended =20=

> tiff
> in the "legal" way? If so they already have an implementation that
> contain text layers, only thing need to do is to work on gimp to =20
> make it
> compatible with that format.
>
> I think Kodak's "Image" did not implement all the text attributes like
> hinting, anti-alias and so like. But in GIMP not all text =20
> decoration are
> implemented neither (e.g. not possible to set text underlined).
> _______________________________________________
> Tiff mailing list: Tiff@lists.maptools.org
> http://lists.maptools.org/mailman/listinfo/tiff
> http://www.remotesensing.org/libtiff/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tiff mailing list: Tiff@lists.maptools.org
> http://lists.maptools.org/mailman/listinfo/tiff
> http://www.remotesensing.org/libtiff/


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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
<br><div><div>On 26-Feb-09, at 10:07 PM, Chris Cox wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"> <font =
face=3D"Myriad Pro"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">Yes, Kodak stuffed a =
lot of non-standard, undocumented stuff into their files.<br> <br> For =
Photoshop, the text has to be pixel accurate =97 what one user sees, all =
users should see. That requires the same exact layout and rasterization =
engine everywhere. =A0So, Photoshop=92s text layers are not a good =
candidate for sharing with other =
apps.</span></font></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>This, =
from the company that invented PostScript and PDF, for which "pixel =
accurate" interoperable tools have been produced by multiple vendors =
(including open source) for decades.</div><div><br></div><div>With =
<b><i>good enough documentation and specification,</i></b>=A0as those =
other technologies have had, we could see the same diversity and healthy =
competition in rasterisation and compositing engines for PSD as =
transformed imaging =
industries=A0post-PostScript.</div><div><br></div><div>Nearly everyone =
(outside Adobe) would be happy to see PSD's primitives =96 already a de =
facto standard of sorts, if reeking of lock-in =96 be made fully =
interoperable. However Adobe seems to fear that kind of open-ness and it =
seems safe to predict it will never happen. Technical rationales for =
this are rather feeble compared to the powerful paranoia =
factor.</div><div><br></div><div>--Toby</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><font face=3D"Myriad Pro"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10pt"><br> <br> If you just want comments, that could =
be standardized =96 since the exact rasterization doesn=92t matter. =A0Of =
course, comments could just be added to standard XMP metadata and =
optionally rendered.<br> <br> Chris<br> <br> <br> On 2/26/09 5:53 PM, =
"<a href=3D"zhangweiwu@realss.com">zhangweiwu@realss.com</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"zhangweiwu@realss.com">zhangweiwu@realss.com</a>> wrote:<br> =
<br> </span></font><blockquote><font face=3D"Myriad Pro"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10pt">S Carlsen schrieb:<br> > Joris, Zhang, and =
all,<br> ><br> > Yes, it would certainly be possible to add constructs =
such as image<br> > layers, text layers, masks, and so on to TIFF. =
(There was actually a<br> > brief discussion of this topic at least as =
far back as May of 2004.)<br> > It would of course take a fair amount of =
commitment to make it happen.<br> > But if it did happen, if it were =
reasonably elegant and not too<br> > difficult to implement, and if it =
gained some momentum and popularity,<br> > I suspect that Photoshop =
would eventually support it.<br> ><br> Hi thanks for the comment.<br> =
<br> If there could be effort on this, where should this effort be put? =
On<br> Gimp TIFF save plugin? or could libtiff do something? I guess =
first<br> thing that should be done should be in GIMP.<br> <br> I =
remember some 10 years ago I used a software pre-installed on MS<br> =
Windows, made by Kodak, called "Image". The software allows me to =
put<br> comment text on TIFF images and save it in the tiff images. The =
other<br> person who opens the tiff image can see and edit my comment. =
"Comment"<br> is simply text above image layers. Does anyone know if =
Kodak stuffed a<br> lot of non-standard information as comment into TIFF =
or it extended tiff<br> in the "legal" way? If so they already have an =
implementation that<br> contain text layers, only thing need to do is to =
work on gimp to make it<br> compatible with that format.<br> <br> I =
think Kodak's "Image" did not implement all the text attributes like<br> =
hinting, anti-alias and so like. But in GIMP not all text decoration =
are<br> implemented neither (e.g. not possible to set text =
underlined).<br> _______________________________________________<br> =
Tiff mailing list: <a =
href=3D"Tiff@lists.maptools.org">Tiff@lists.maptools.org</a><br> <a =
href=3D"http://lists.maptools.org/mailman/listinfo/tiff">http://lists.mapt=
ools.org/mailman/listinfo/tiff</a><br> <a =
href=3D"http://www.remotesensing.org/libtiff/">http://www.remotesensing.or=
g/libtiff/</a><br> <br> </span></font></blockquote><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; =
">_______________________________________________</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">Tiff mailing list: <a =
href=3D"mailto:Tiff@lists.maptools.org">Tiff@lists.maptools.org</a></div><=
div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><a =
href=3D"http://lists.maptools.org/mailman/listinfo/tiff">http://lists.mapt=
ools.org/mailman/listinfo/tiff</a></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a =
href=3D"http://www.remotesensing.org/libtiff/">http://www.remotesensing.or=
g/libtiff/</a></div> </blockquote></div><br></body></html>=

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_______________________________________________
Tiff mailing list: Tiff@lists.maptools.org
http://lists.maptools.org/mailman/listinfo/tiff
http://www.remotesensing.org/libtiff/
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