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From: Kemp Watson <kemp@objectivepathology.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 09:03:58 -0400
Message-ID: <CACp925RRFXPbgo1cP943C2+DtjCDn040YV=Q4oG=LyGXq5_XGQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Vincent Ripoll <v.ripoll@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tiff] Updating zlib library
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Does this now not really force the question: exactly what is TIFF (and
libtiff) in 2020?

Is it an open container format, where any codecs can be embedded, and there
are no compatibility guarantees between files, only for container
packing/unpacking?

Is it a standards-conforming file format? Note, that Adobe appears to no
longer maintain the format, and has not put back online the registry - come
clean Adobe, do you care about the TIFF 6.0 spec any more, or will you turn
it over to someone who does? And, have you lost the registry, or are
purposefully not publishing it? Leonard, could you weigh in here? There are
only two alternatives, which one is Adobe's position?

Or, is it a living file format, where codecs can be added to a new spec,
and other non-libtiff implementations will be constantly playing catch-up
and users have reduced compatibility guarantees?

Kemp Watson

On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:15 AM Vincent Ripoll <v.ripoll@gmail.com> wrote:

> Even though the DEFLATE compression algorithm is only defined in the
> appendix https://www.alternatiff.com/resources/TIFFphotoshop.pdf, it is
> well supported and allows better compression for archiving purposes.
>
> The current implementation used by LibTiff is, according to
> http://www.simplesystems.org/libtiff/internals.html, the libz library
> written by Jean-loup Gailly and Mark Adler.
>
> New implementations achievingbetter compression ratio exist:
> https://github.com/amadvance/advancecomp/tree/master/libdeflate
> or https://github.com/google/zopfli to name a few.
> It would be worth using those.
>
> I wrote a POC that takes a sample tiff file compressed with the DEFLATE
> algorithm provided by LibTiff (through ImageMagick -quality 90 that is
> compression level 9), extracts the content of the first "strip",
> decompresses it, recompresses it with a higher compression level (using the
> first c# lib I could find, that is
> https://www.nuget.org/packages/DotNetZip -- zopfli should compress even
> better), and updates the strip with a smaller content without altering the
> image.
> Compressed data : 120,824 bytes
> Uncompressed data: 587,568 bytes
> Recompressed data: 111, 396 bytes
>
> That's 9428 bytes saved on the first strip. Since there are 728 strips,
> that's potentially a lot of bytes saved. I did the same with the first 600
> rows:
>
> Compressed size: 59,255,517
> Uncompressed size: 352,540,800
> Recompressed size: 53,162,232
>
>
> The TIFF file:
> LZW: 160,091,372 bytes / Endianess: LSB
> ZIP using Photoshop: 59,463,688 bytes / Endianess: LSB
> ZIP using ImageMagick: 61,148,606 / Endianess: MSB
> ZIP using ImageMagick -quality 90: 59,535,052 / Endianess: MSB
>
>
> Vincent
> _______________________________________________
> Tiff mailing list
> Tiff@lists.osgeo.org
> https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/tiff
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Does this now not really force the question: exactly =
what is TIFF (and libtiff) in 2020?</div><div><br></div><div>Is it an open =
container format, where any codecs can be embedded, and there are no compat=
ibility guarantees between files, only for container packing/unpacking?</di=
v><div><br></div><div>Is it a standards-conforming file format? Note, that =
Adobe appears to no longer maintain the format, and has not put back online=
 the registry - come clean Adobe, do you care about the TIFF 6.0 spec any m=
ore, or will you turn it over to someone who does? And, have you lost the r=
egistry, or are purposefully not publishing it? Leonard, could you weigh in=
 here? There are only two alternatives, which one is Adobe&#39;s position?<=
/div><div><br></div><div>Or, is it a living file format, where codecs can b=
e added to a new spec, and other non-libtiff implementations will be consta=
ntly playing catch-up and users have reduced compatibility guarantees?</div=
><div><br></div><div>Kemp Watson<br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 8:15 AM V=
incent Ripoll &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:v.ripoll@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">v=
.ripoll@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Even though the DEFLATE compression algor=
ithm is only defined in the appendix=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.alternatif=
f.com/resources/TIFFphotoshop.pdf" target=3D"_blank">https://www.alternatif=
f.com/resources/TIFFphotoshop.pdf</a>, it is well supported and allows bett=
er compression for archiving purposes.<div><br></div><div>The current imple=
mentation used by LibTiff is, according to=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.simpl=
esystems.org/libtiff/internals.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.simplesys=
tems.org/libtiff/internals.html</a>, the libz library written by Jean-loup =
Gailly and Mark Adler.</div><div><br></div><div>New implementations achievi=
ngbetter compression ratio exist: <a href=3D"https://github.com/amadvance/a=
dvancecomp/tree/master/libdeflate" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/ama=
dvance/advancecomp/tree/master/libdeflate</a><br>or <a href=3D"https://gith=
ub.com/google/zopfli" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/google/zopfli</a=
> to name a few.</div><div>It would be worth using those.</div><br>I wrote =
a POC that takes a sample tiff file compressed with the DEFLATE algorithm p=
rovided by LibTiff (through ImageMagick -quality 90 that is compression lev=
el 9), extracts the content of the first &quot;strip&quot;, decompresses it=
, recompresses it with a higher compression level (using the first c# lib I=
 could find, that is <a href=3D"https://www.nuget.org/packages/DotNetZip" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.nuget.org/packages/DotNetZip</a> -- zopfli sho=
uld compress even better), and updates the strip with a smaller content wit=
hout altering the image. =C2=A0<div>Compressed data :=C2=A0120,824 bytes</d=
iv><div>Uncompressed data:=C2=A0587,568 bytes</div><div>Recompressed data:=
=C2=A0111, 396 bytes</div><div><br></div><div>That&#39;s 9428 bytes saved o=
n the first strip. Since there are=C2=A0728 strips, that&#39;s potentially =
a lot of bytes saved. I did the same with the first 600 rows:</div><br>Comp=
ressed size: 59,255,517<br>Uncompressed size: 352,540,800<br>Recompressed s=
ize: 53,162,232<br><br><br>The TIFF file:<br>LZW: 160,091,372 bytes / Endia=
ness: LSB<br>ZIP using Photoshop: 59,463,688 bytes / Endianess: LSB<br>ZIP =
using ImageMagick: 61,148,606 / Endianess: MSB<br>ZIP using ImageMagick -qu=
ality 90: 59,535,052 / Endianess: MSB<br><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(36,4=
1,46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,&quot;Segoe UI&quot;,Hel=
vetica,Arial,sans-serif,&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;,&quot;Segoe UI Emoji&=
quot;;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(36,41,=
46);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,&quot;Segoe UI&quot;,Helve=
tica,Arial,sans-serif,&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;,&quot;Segoe UI Emoji&qu=
ot;;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(36,41,46=
);font-family:-apple-system,BlinkMacSystemFont,&quot;Segoe UI&quot;,Helveti=
ca,Arial,sans-serif,&quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;,&quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot=
;;font-size:14px">Vincent</span></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tiff mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Tiff@lists.osgeo.org" target=3D"_blank">Tiff@lists.osgeo.=
org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/tiff" rel=3D"noreferrer=
" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/tiff</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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