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To: Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen@simple.dallas.tx.us>
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Subject: Re: [Tiff] LZ4 compression
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> BTW, TIFF is still common in the printing industry since TIFF 
> supports CMYK images that can represent printing device output. 
> That's why I'm seeking LZ4 TIFF option.

Adobe promotes PDF for such applications.

My company uses Adobe PDF print engine, which generates TIFFs and we're 
going to a print engine that will create TIFFs consistently outside the 
regular TIFF spec. And it turns out that if size warrants, the APPE will 
create a bigTIFF. So internally, Adobe has implemented bigTIFF into at 
least some of their products, but won't do anything to address it in an 
official capacity. I'm sure that goes for other extensions as well. 

Joseph Maniaci
Staff Software Engineer
RPPS



From:   Bob Friesenhahn <bfriesen@simple.dallas.tx.us>
To:     fx HAYAKAWA MICHIO <michio.hayakawa@fujixerox.co.jp>
Cc:     "tiff@lists.maptools.org" <tiff@lists.maptools.org>
Date:   05/14/2018 07:46 AM
Subject:        Re: [Tiff] LZ4 compression [EXTERNAL]
Sent by:        tiff-bounces@lists.maptools.org



On Mon, 14 May 2018, fx HAYAKAWA MICHIO wrote:

>
>> One other alternative is use of filesystem-level compression.
>
> This is a good experiment.
> It shows LZ4 doesn't have good compression ratio comparted to gzip or 
other compression method for archiving.
> LZ4 is focused on encoding and decoding speed. That's why LZ4 is adapted 
on ZFS file system. The better compression method for TIFF should have 
good balancing between decoding performance and transferring performance, 
which equals to compression ratio. Because TIFF is always decoded and 
viewed on viewer applications.

While LZ4 file compression performance in zfs is interesting, it is 
not very indicative of how well it would do on raster data as 
implemented in libtiff.  The reason why it is not very very indicative 
is that the filesystem is a general-purpose mechanism without any 
knowlege of the content (e.g. TIFF strips/tiles) and with an 
underlying block size not related to the image data.

It is easy to implement LZ4 inside the operating system kernel space 
but ZStd is likely too complex to port into such an environment. 
Regardless, ZStd compresses much faster than gzip while achieving a 
better compression ratio on raster data.

> Anyway, it looks like Adobe is the key person. If Adobe implements 
> LZ4 compression on Photoshop, LZ4 TIFF will become a common format.

Adobe is no longer pushing or promoting TIFF and it is unlikely to 
implement any more extensions to TIFF.   It is not clear to me that 
Adobe's Photoshop is as dominant as it used to be.



Bob
-- 
Bob Friesenhahn
bfriesen@simple.dallas.tx.us, 
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.simplesystems.org_users_bfriesen_&d=DwICAg&c=5hYF0Zu0Yz-C6S-kaHDItw&r=HnVw9YJBS4ST0tOBucT3NvWUJRRGhDxXu4zHnS5AkgY&m=faxnTKuowEJsfJ8pe-vQomwFTEOpfInS_z3i4LvxgMM&s=WkAgKWVZNzBYk5aJr3Zlwu2cjHW3wqhx5Bjd1ycHfsg&e=

GraphicsMagick Maintainer,    
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<tt><font size=2>&gt; BTW, TIFF is still common in the printing industry
since TIFF <br>
&gt; supports CMYK images that can represent printing device output. <br>
&gt; That's why I'm seeking LZ4 TIFF option.<br>
<br>
Adobe promotes PDF for such applications.</font></tt>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">My company uses Adobe PDF print engine,
which generates TIFFs and we're going to a print engine that will create
TIFFs consistently outside the regular TIFF spec. And it turns out that
if size warrants, the APPE will create a bigTIFF. So internally, Adobe
has implemented bigTIFF into at least some of their products, but won't
do anything to address it in an official capacity. I'm sure that goes for
other extensions as well. </font>
<br>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Joseph Maniaci</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">Staff Software Engineer</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">RPPS</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">From: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Bob Friesenhahn &lt;bfriesen@simple.dallas.tx.us&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">To: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">fx HAYAKAWA MICHIO
&lt;michio.hayakawa@fujixerox.co.jp&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Cc: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">&quot;tiff@lists.maptools.org&quot;
&lt;tiff@lists.maptools.org&gt;</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Date: &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">05/14/2018 07:46 AM</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Subject: &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: [Tiff] LZ4
compression [EXTERNAL]</font>
<br><font size=1 color=#5f5f5f face="sans-serif">Sent by: &nbsp; &nbsp;
&nbsp; &nbsp;</font><font size=1 face="sans-serif">tiff-bounces@lists.maptools.org</font>
<br>
<hr noshade>
<br>
<br>
<br><tt><font size=2>On Mon, 14 May 2018, fx HAYAKAWA MICHIO wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; One other alternative is use of filesystem-level compression.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This is a good experiment.<br>
&gt; It shows LZ4 doesn't have good compression ratio comparted to gzip
or other compression method for archiving.<br>
&gt; LZ4 is focused on encoding and decoding speed. That's why LZ4 is adapted
on ZFS file system. The better compression method for TIFF should have
good balancing between decoding performance and transferring performance,
which equals to compression ratio. Because TIFF is always decoded and viewed
on viewer applications.<br>
<br>
While LZ4 file compression performance in zfs is interesting, it is <br>
not very indicative of how well it would do on raster data as <br>
implemented in libtiff. &nbsp;The reason why it is not very very indicative
<br>
is that the filesystem is a general-purpose mechanism without any <br>
knowlege of the content (e.g. TIFF strips/tiles) and with an <br>
underlying block size not related to the image data.<br>
<br>
It is easy to implement LZ4 inside the operating system kernel space <br>
but ZStd is likely too complex to port into such an environment. <br>
Regardless, ZStd compresses much faster than gzip while achieving a <br>
better compression ratio on raster data.<br>
<br>
&gt; Anyway, it looks like Adobe is the key person. If Adobe implements
<br>
&gt; LZ4 compression on Photoshop, LZ4 TIFF will become a common format.<br>
<br>
Adobe is no longer pushing or promoting TIFF and it is unlikely to <br>
implement any more extensions to TIFF. &nbsp; It is not clear to me that
<br>
Adobe's Photoshop is as dominant as it used to be.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Bob<br>
-- <br>
Bob Friesenhahn<br>
bfriesen@simple.dallas.tx.us, </font></tt><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.simplesystems.org_users_bfriesen_&amp;d=DwICAg&amp;c=5hYF0Zu0Yz-C6S-kaHDItw&amp;r=HnVw9YJBS4ST0tOBucT3NvWUJRRGhDxXu4zHnS5AkgY&amp;m=faxnTKuowEJsfJ8pe-vQomwFTEOpfInS_z3i4LvxgMM&amp;s=WkAgKWVZNzBYk5aJr3Zlwu2cjHW3wqhx5Bjd1ycHfsg&amp;e="><tt><font size=2>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.simplesystems.org_users_bfriesen_&amp;d=DwICAg&amp;c=5hYF0Zu0Yz-C6S-kaHDItw&amp;r=HnVw9YJBS4ST0tOBucT3NvWUJRRGhDxXu4zHnS5AkgY&amp;m=faxnTKuowEJsfJ8pe-vQomwFTEOpfInS_z3i4LvxgMM&amp;s=WkAgKWVZNzBYk5aJr3Zlwu2cjHW3wqhx5Bjd1ycHfsg&amp;e=</font></tt></a><tt><font size=2><br>
GraphicsMagick Maintainer, &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></tt><a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.GraphicsMagick.org_&amp;d=DwICAg&amp;c=5hYF0Zu0Yz-C6S-kaHDItw&amp;r=HnVw9YJBS4ST0tOBucT3NvWUJRRGhDxXu4zHnS5AkgY&amp;m=faxnTKuowEJsfJ8pe-vQomwFTEOpfInS_z3i4LvxgMM&amp;s=ymzhagmq6MOhTcFXBY9XKZW12ae_vxewcAV7sK1eH18&amp;e="><tt><font size=2>https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.GraphicsMagick.org_&amp;d=DwICAg&amp;c=5hYF0Zu0Yz-C6S-kaHDItw&amp;r=HnVw9YJBS4ST0tOBucT3NvWUJRRGhDxXu4zHnS5AkgY&amp;m=faxnTKuowEJsfJ8pe-vQomwFTEOpfInS_z3i4LvxgMM&amp;s=ymzhagmq6MOhTcFXBY9XKZW12ae_vxewcAV7sK1eH18&amp;e=</font></tt></a><tt><font size=2><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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