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Subject: Re: [Tiff] OT: Text layer possible in tiff format?
From: S Carlsen <stephen@scarlsen.com>
To: "Joris Van Damme (AWare Systems)" <info@awaresystems.be>
Cc: zhangweiwu@realss.com, tiff@lists.maptools.org
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Joris, Zhang, and all,

Yes, it would certainly be possible to add constructs such as image layers,
text layers, masks, and so on to TIFF. (There was actually a brief
discussion of this topic at least as far back as May of 2004.)  It would of
course take a fair amount of commitment to make it happen. But if it did
happen, if it were reasonably elegant and not too difficult to implement,
and if it gained some momentum and popularity, I suspect that Photoshop
would eventually support it.

(Photoshop's current behavior of stuffing layers and the like into a privat=
e
block of data in TIFF files was probably due to resource and scheduling
constraints rather than an attempt at obfuscation -- otherwise they would
have encrypted the data or not documented it.)

Best regards,
Stephen



On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 1:45 AM, Joris Van Damme (AWare Systems) <
info@awaresystems.be> wrote:

> Zhang,
>
>
> > Recently I had a talk with a photoshop user who showed me how to save a=
n
> > image from Photoshop into TIFF format with all layers preserved. I thin=
k
> > this makes TIFF  a good image exchange format for users of different
> > photo manipulation software. If it can support text layers, it would be
> > even better, because most of the times people exchange retouched photo
> > only need to preserve layers (including text layers) but do not need to
> > preserve all masks and paths. Since TIFF is usable for non-professional
> > users as well (both Linux and Windows can view and print these files
> > without using image manipulation software), it makes it idea for
> > exchange not only between people who do image manipulation but also
> > people who receive & use the result.
> >
> > In the past, people who manipulate photos has to ask if the other one
> > want layered format (PSD, ideal for professional users but not viewable
> > to ordinary users) or ordinary image (JPEG, readable to ordinary users
> > but lost layer information for professional users), with TIFF they don'=
t
> > have to.
>
> I agree 100%, except that I don't feel it's off-topic.
>
> TIFF is extensible, and hi=C3=ABrarchical. Which means tags can be define=
d to
> mean LayerIFDs similar to SubIFDs, tags can be defined to specify text
> content of an image IFD, etc. Its philosophy of enabling readers to alway=
s
> safely ignore what they don't understand makes for good interchange. It
> means that an image IFD with text content, can include the text with
> position and style and such in a special tag for those that can make sens=
e
> of it, but should also include the pre-rendered text as a plain image in
> the
> strips or tiles such that software that only understands image still offe=
rs
> the same result though with limited functionality (i.e. no search nor
> editing of text). And it means that IFDs that have a LayerIFDs tag, shoul=
d
> still contain the pre-rendered 'flattened' version, such that software th=
at
> doesn't wish to bother with the concept still shows the image, though wit=
h
> limited functionality. Its philosophy includes loss of information that
> software cannot make sense of, and that guarantees consistency of data. I=
t
> means that software that doesn't understand layers and allows editing of
> the
> flattened base IFD, should not resave the LayerIFDs, and data cannot beco=
me
> inconsistent.
>
> TIFF would be ideally suitable for image interchange. It could mean to
> image, what RTF never succeeded in meaning to text. It could be the user'=
s
> guarantee that his image data with all its advanced functionality flows
> freely. However, then there's reality. The vendor of the industry standar=
d
> image editing software, that also owns the TIFF specification, saves any
> advanced data in TIFF in private tags instead of extending the TIFF
> hi=C3=ABrarchy in the intended manner. Obviously, not everybody believes =
in the
> all-round long-term benefit of unlocking the user's data, ensuring
> interchange and enabling long-term storage.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Joris
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tiff mailing list: Tiff@lists.maptools.org
> http://lists.maptools.org/mailman/listinfo/tiff
> http://www.remotesensing.org/libtiff/
>

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Joris, Zhang, and all,<br><br>Yes, it would certainly be possible to add co=
nstructs such as image layers, text layers, masks, and so on to TIFF. (Ther=
e was actually a brief discussion of this topic at least as far back as May=
 of 2004.)=C2=A0 It would of course take a fair amount of commitment to mak=
e it happen. But if it did happen, if it were reasonably elegant and not to=
o difficult to implement, and if it gained some momentum and popularity, I =
suspect that Photoshop would eventually support it. <br>
<br>(Photoshop&#39;s current behavior of stuffing layers and the like into =
a private block of data in TIFF files was probably due to resource and sche=
duling constraints rather than an attempt at obfuscation -- otherwise they =
would have encrypted the data or not documented it.)<br>
<br>Best regards,<br>Stephen<br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Feb 25, 2009 at 1:45 AM, Joris Van Damme (AWare Systems) <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:info@awaresystems.be">info@awaresystems.be</a>&gt=
;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">Zhang,<br>
<div class=3D"Ih2E3d"><br>
<br>
&gt; Recently I had a talk with a photoshop user who showed me how to save =
an<br>
&gt; image from Photoshop into TIFF format with all layers preserved. I thi=
nk<br>
&gt; this makes TIFF =C2=A0a good image exchange format for users of differ=
ent<br>
&gt; photo manipulation software. If it can support text layers, it would b=
e<br>
&gt; even better, because most of the times people exchange retouched photo=
<br>
&gt; only need to preserve layers (including text layers) but do not need t=
o<br>
&gt; preserve all masks and paths. Since TIFF is usable for non-professiona=
l<br>
&gt; users as well (both Linux and Windows can view and print these files<b=
r>
&gt; without using image manipulation software), it makes it idea for<br>
&gt; exchange not only between people who do image manipulation but also<br=
>
&gt; people who receive &amp; use the result.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; In the past, people who manipulate photos has to ask if the other one<=
br>
&gt; want layered format (PSD, ideal for professional users but not viewabl=
e<br>
&gt; to ordinary users) or ordinary image (JPEG, readable to ordinary users=
<br>
&gt; but lost layer information for professional users), with TIFF they don=
&#39;t<br>
&gt; have to.<br>
<br>
</div>I agree 100%, except that I don&#39;t feel it&#39;s off-topic.<br>
<br>
TIFF is extensible, and hi=C3=ABrarchical. Which means tags can be defined =
to<br>
mean LayerIFDs similar to SubIFDs, tags can be defined to specify text<br>
content of an image IFD, etc. Its philosophy of enabling readers to always<=
br>
safely ignore what they don&#39;t understand makes for good interchange. It=
<br>
means that an image IFD with text content, can include the text with<br>
position and style and such in a special tag for those that can make sense<=
br>
of it, but should also include the pre-rendered text as a plain image in th=
e<br>
strips or tiles such that software that only understands image still offers=
<br>
the same result though with limited functionality (i.e. no search nor<br>
editing of text). And it means that IFDs that have a LayerIFDs tag, should<=
br>
still contain the pre-rendered &#39;flattened&#39; version, such that softw=
are that<br>
doesn&#39;t wish to bother with the concept still shows the image, though w=
ith<br>
limited functionality. Its philosophy includes loss of information that<br>
software cannot make sense of, and that guarantees consistency of data. It<=
br>
means that software that doesn&#39;t understand layers and allows editing o=
f the<br>
flattened base IFD, should not resave the LayerIFDs, and data cannot become=
<br>
inconsistent.<br>
<br>
TIFF would be ideally suitable for image interchange. It could mean to<br>
image, what RTF never succeeded in meaning to text. It could be the user&#3=
9;s<br>
guarantee that his image data with all its advanced functionality flows<br>
freely. However, then there&#39;s reality. The vendor of the industry stand=
ard<br>
image editing software, that also owns the TIFF specification, saves any<br=
>
advanced data in TIFF in private tags instead of extending the TIFF<br>
hi=C3=ABrarchy in the intended manner. Obviously, not everybody believes in=
 the<br>
all-round long-term benefit of unlocking the user&#39;s data, ensuring<br>
interchange and enabling long-term storage.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<font color=3D"#888888"><br>
Joris<br>
</font><div><div></div><div class=3D"Wj3C7c"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Tiff mailing list: <a href=3D"mailto:Tiff@lists.maptools.org">Tiff@lists.ma=
ptools.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://lists.maptools.org/mailman/listinfo/tiff" target=3D"_blan=
k">http://lists.maptools.org/mailman/listinfo/tiff</a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.remotesensing.org/libtiff/" target=3D"_blank">http://=
www.remotesensing.org/libtiff/</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>

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